Prejudice against Weckl

**Derek DeFields** · May 30th, 2003, 04:14 PM

While I have a lot of respect for John Riley, it's comments like that that give Weckl the rep he has.

Why not just say Weckl plays with a more "strict" interpretation of the beat? Why not say that's just not your preference? Why try to state (or in this case allude) that Weckl can't play "real" Jazz as determined by you? (John or anyone else)

It's disrespectful IMO. Saying what you want in private or even behind the anonymity of an Internet message board like this one is one thing, but when you come out in a clinic, publication, or message group and speak as a pro (like Peter has done here a few times and been GREAT) I think it's your duty to set the example for other musicians. (young AND old) There are plenty of ways to point out the differences in Weckl's swing and say, Roy Haynes' without being derogatory.

If they keep perpetrating this attitude, the next time some kid's "rock" friend at his school says, "Jazz sucks, those guys are all assholes and the music is boring! check out the new blink disc" they may have reason to continue bitching about the Jazz audience shrinking.

Flame away. I'm on vacation until Tuesday.

[img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]

**ptrack** · May 30th, 2003, 04:48 PM

Seriously,
Vinnie plays many more styles than Dave...Vinnie also plays alot more authentic than Dave....For me Dave plays awesome...but he does not have the kind of musical flow that Vinnie possess (sp)....

Dave is awesome...But I'd rather listen to Dave play with some crazy ass fusion guys than listen to him play something simple and/or popular....

Vinnie , I can listen to VC play with just about anyone ....His sound is so diverse and authentic..The guy can traverse more musical country than any most other drummers out there today......

Dave gets alot of recognition amongst alot of the younger drummers I know...VC to them is purely legendary ......Although VC plays on more record dates it seems that Weckl has more control in the drumming community (ie he is more accesible to students)...Most of the average drummers I meet know about Weckl but they do not know about Vinnie...

If VC was as involved in the educational scene as Weckl is...Then things would surely change a bit....

Me personally though..I like how Weckl swings,I like how VC swings...Weckl's swing style is quite a bit fusiony but I like that it's insipiring and creative.....

As for the 21 year old kid...Well, If I had been there I would've shut that kid up!!!! Cause one thing I cant stand is and ignorant drummer who is terribly cocky and misinformed........It reminds of a time when i met this young drummer who had the nerve to say that VC was a punk who could not stand next to Weckl...I felt like punching that dude's eyes out......He did not even know who VC was....Hopefully he has learned his lesson....

Both VC and Dave each have thier own respective limelight....Although VC is the drumgod for me...Weckl to me would be one of the Lords of the Kingdom.......

**Plaid** · May 30th, 2003, 05:29 PM

Ptrack, I was going to say the exact same thing about drummers I've talked to over the years knowing Weckl's name but not Vinnie's. At the gig I played the other night, I met a drummer and said that my hero is VC, and he looked at me with a blank stare, but when I said I like Weckl as well, he was like "Oh yeah, I know of him". Anyway, IMO, there really is no comparison feel-wise when it comes to these two. Vinnie is all about feel, while Dave is about sounding as perfect as he can. With that said, I think a drummer like Dave is absolutely necessary BECAUSE of that aspect of his playing, but there should only be ONE Dave. Can you imagine if everyone played like Weckl? BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORING. You would know EXACTLY what you get EVERY time. The thing I love about Vinnie is that though he has a certain arsenal that he works with, he finds SOME way to make it different and fresh EVERY time I've seen or listened to him. The Dave Weckl Band, though obviously very talented and among the best, is entirely too perfect and cookie-cutter sounding. It's as if every guy knows exactly which note they're about to play, so they don't really think about making it sound kickin'. Now listen to Karizma (a valid comparison with the DWB), and tell me that it doesn't sound like all of those guys (with the possible exception of Stubenhaus) is totally going for it! That adds SO much more style (as you all know) when you try to stretch the limits in a musical way, and I never really see DW do that. As far as DW with Sting, I don't think that would work AT ALL. You know how Dave feels about straight ahead rock. (watch "The Next Step" video where he says "....rock, where there's no dynamics and just straight ahead bashing", and then proceeds to play one of the stalest beats I've ever heard). As far as the "perfect" dynamic thing goes with Weckl, I was with my drum teacher about ten years ago, and told him that Weckl gets old very quickly for me because it's just too perfect and mechanical sounding, and when I said his dynamics were too perfect, he said "Yes, but realize that that's quite an accomplishment". My teacher was not a huge Weckl fan, but he's exactly right. Dave without any question is one of the finest players around, but he needs to work on people skills for sure.

**benrand** · May 30th, 2003, 06:39 PM

I remember reading a quote by Tony where he said he likes to hear drummers, or musicians, who go for it and in the process sometimes flub. Tony flubbed a bit, but when I hear him play, that imperfection in his playing adds "garlic" to it.

Weckl is amazing, but he is a machine, and it comes off unemotional and too practiced. Like he's playing things that are easy for HIM to play (not the averagedrummer) and that adds to the feeling of detachment you sometimes get when listening to him play. At least, I hear it.

**palmerlouie** · May 30th, 2003, 08:09 PM

i didnt care very much for dave's "next step" era of playing.......then i could understand someone saying he is a machine. but now and even stuff with chick and camilo it is so emotional. so open and it breathes so much. vinnie plays in a much more closed style to me. daves latin playing is far better than anything i have heard vinne attempt and same for some of daves swing stuff. ok so vinnie is an amazing all rounder and great at the pop and rock. to me when i see the video clip of vinnie with chick and the acoutstic group he is just bashing and making loads of noise.......where as dave is much more subtle and dynamical and sympathetic!

and sting isnt rock music........weckl saying he didnt care for rock music cause of the lack of dynamics......hes spot on.......but sting is far from lacking in dynamics. its not pop and not rock.....its just great popular music. anyway......in a weckl interview he said if sting called tomorrow...he'd go.......but people like sting wouldnt think of weckl cause hes so involved in the jazz scene.

and i can somewhat understand the comment about DWB vs. Karizma. and i do also wish that the DWB would loosen up a bit more. last month they did play one tune where they all took 4 bar breaks and that was cool. but is the DWB sounding so perfect not one of the wonders.....its harder to do that than mess about for 14 mins on one song. daves band i rekon has a lot of influence from chicks elektric band stuff and is very outstanding and exciting.......karizma is sometimes too ruff around the edges.....sure there needs to be a certain amount of risk involved (reason why i like dennis.....sometimes its good to see them hit rims and make mistakes....adds to the experience of them going for it) but for me dave embodies almost total perfection in terms of playing jazz/fusion (whatever u want to call it, and stretching the instrument as much as u can in a musical setting and just generally playing with unrivalled taste, and dynamics and playing so organically and the wonder of how his brain ticks!!!

**shedder** · May 30th, 2003, 09:14 PM

nice posts plaid and palmerlouie.

i don't really understand when people say dave plays too perfect. i think vinnie plays more perfect on his studio stuff then dave. when i listen to transition or perp. motion i hear a lot of loose phrasing and time thats not dead on the pulse. even on his old video he has a section on playing loose and he shows a great example of it (not like the rock example plaid talked about). his whole concept is playing loose, relaxed and fluid and i totally hear that in his playing. dave nowadays is mr. FEEL. i think vinnie plays more stiff than dave but i like that. vinnie sounds like he's playing with more intensity and creating a lot of space with his open snare work during solos. in dave's environment, dave is better... in vinnie's environment (which is more vast), vinnie is better. can you imagine vinnie playing those percussion stuff to his left and sounding as good as weckl or dave trying to rock out with sting and bringing as much percision and intensity? they are the best in their own area of expertise.

**PocketPlayer** · May 30th, 2003, 09:37 PM

I've said enough in this thread, but one last comment...

To compare Dave or Vinnie, especially the ultra diverse Colaiuta to the "jazz greats" is the limitations of the men. When you spread yourself over a larger context musically, you lose the puritiy of the ONE genre. Guys playing back in the 30's-60's didn't have as many subsects of music to make a living playing. It WAS jazz then. Steve Smith makes note of this in his History DVD, that drummers back then didn't see themselves as a country drummer, a rocker, a...whatever, but as a drummer.

If Dave or Vinnie come out under the "pure jazz" context then they will lose something. The "pure jazzer" is committed to his craft, as loyal as a priest to his religion, desiring to keep it pure, free of contaminiation. Ever met one of these cats? They're intense to say the least!

That said, I'm glad that Vinnie or Dave can't jump FULLY into the jazz context and FULLY pull it off like the "pure jazzer." This gives us definitive form of music that only a few are willing to pay the price to perfect.

Lastly, speaking of a well known, big named drummer with a "stiff" feel...Oh No, here goes...man, when I hear Billy Cobham I must say he feels very stiff to me. Not always, but a lot. Jeff Porcaro was even told at one time he had to ease up on his "perfect" studio time and play with feel. That's funny! Going back to idea of DigitalMan's earlier post, I wish my biggest complaint was my time was too perfect, that I nailed every hit and punch too precisely. I don't know about you, but I'd be able to sleep well at night [img]graemlins/moon.gif[/img]

**erskoman** · May 30th, 2003, 11:40 PM

Hi Gang,

I'm not sure why Dave became such a lightning rod for criticism; I suppose it had something to do with all of his success early on ...

What I do know is that both Dave and Vinnie have pushed the envelope of drumming ability to a whole new place/higher level, and their skills and commitment are undeniable. (I'm talking mouth-open/jaw-dropping/amazing drum stuff.)

There are lots of ways to play 8th notes, and some of them might swing more than others, and someone's personal preferences will lean more in one direction than another ... that's what makes the world go 'round, and that's what makes it possible for all of us to get gigs!

Peace and drum love ...

Peter Erskine